NYC, scheduling follow-up, new regulation?

[rgaetano]

Hi everyone, I need a little help/advice.

Last month I had my first NYC appointment in NYC that went well (applied GGF-GF-F-Me, with my father). I was told all I had to do was fix these two things and then schedule a follow up,

1. apostille our birth certificates (for mine, and my father's) because we got the wrong signature from the county
2. get my parent's marriage certificate in state certified form (not certified local town copy, which is what we had).

We got these documents, and when we emailed for a follow-up we received the following response:


"We wish to inform you that since your appointment, a new regulation has been issued by the Ministry of the Interior, regarding the citizenship application process, which pertains specifically in cases such as yours.
As you will recall, this office had pointed out to you that there was a discrepancy in the date of birth of your Italian ancestor, as it appears on the Petition for Naturalization, as compared to the actual birth date as indicated in the original birth certificate.
The new regulation requires that you obtain either a U.S.Court document, or official letter from from a Judge, which states that the person indicated in the Petition for Naturalization and the person indicated in the original birth certificate are one and the same.

We suggest that you resubmit your request for a follow up appointment, by referencing this e mail and when you have the above document in your posession.
We will accomodate your request in the shortest time frame possible."


First, this was never mentioned as a problem in my meeting (I'm assuming they noted it when reviewing the file after the appointment). Second, I know what the problem is, and I'm hoping that it will be an easy fix because of another document that I have. Here is the problem:

On all my GGF's American, non-naturalization papers, his birthday is 21st of the month.
On his naturalization papers, his birthday is the 23rd of the month.

On his Italian estratto birth certificate, his birthday is the 21st of the month.
On his Italian certificato di nascita, his birthday is listed as the 23rd of the month.

All other information on the naturalization documents (about this children, and his wife) matches up with all other records I have, which make this 2 day difference pretty small.

I had both the estratto and the certificato at the appointment, but he was only interested in the estratto and therefore probably didn't even notice that the certificato listed the 23rd. I don't have it in front of me at the time but the certificato might even list both dates, which would be helpful, and I'm pretty sure it lists his parents. I can check for sure when I get home.


Here are my questions:

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience having the estratto and certificato with different dates, and using them to prove it's the same person when discrepancies in dates come up. I'm hoping that I can use the certificato to prove the date discrepancy is the same person. If so, what is the appropriate way to respond to the email, can I send a scanned copy of the certificato, and ask if this proof is enough?

If not, what's the process for getting the US Court/Judge document? (I'm guessing this is not an easy process).

Is this really a "new regulation" that has been issued in the last month (since my last appointment)? It seems like this is something much older?


Thanks in advance,
Rino

[rgaetano]

Ok, after looking over the documents more closely, my plan doesn't look possible, I was mistaken. Both documents state the 21st as birth. My memory was wrong from not initially examining the document closely.

The estratto essentially states that "....on the 23rd..." my GGF's father declared that my GGF was born on "....the 21st of the current month...."

For some reason I had in my memory that the wording was different, and that one specifically said he was born on the 21st, while the other said the 23rd. It's frustrating that they didn't tell us this was a problem at the appointment, and especially because everything had gone so well up to this point.

How do I go about getting "A US Court document, or official letter from a judge which states that the person indicated on the petition for naturalization is the same person indicated in the original birth certificate are one and the same"? I seem to recall reading that this is near impossible....I'm hoping that since this is not a name discrepancy, the date of birth is only off by 2 days, that I have all the documents to prove it wrong, and that everything else matches up that it might be easier?

[kontessa]

I've waited to see if anyone responded with advice for you before posting. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea what might end up working for you, but I do have a suggestion - there was a thread on italiancitizenship.freeforums where a poster suggested obtaining a court-issued letter of verification of naturalization (or something to this effect) to present to the consulate because of discrepancies in naturalization documents. This may be easier to obtain than a finding of one and the same, and it would satisfy the 'court-issued-statement' requirement. Search for the thread - it may have been in response to questions posed by screaminmonkey, but I can't be certain.

As for a change in regulations...the consulate in NYC has been taking issue with mistakes in naturalization documents for some time now. They tried to derail my application for these types of mistakes in early 2010, and the same for a couple others around the same time, even though all of us were trying to apply for citizenship in Italy. There are a number of posts on these citizenship forums from people like you that had similar discrepancies and ended up with the same outcome from the consulate in NYC. So, is this really something new, or just more of the same?

I tried to search for any new regulations (both laws and circolare) put out by the Ministry of the Interior on a number of websites and I couldn't find anything relevant, especially anything within the last 2 or 3 months. This is not to say that nothing has been passed, perhaps it hasn't yet been posted online, or maybe I just missed it. There were a number passed withing the last few months, but I couldn't find anything that spoke directly to discrepancies in documentation.

I believe that you are entitled to receive a written explanation or reason for the rejection of your application/documents. I recall that you did receive an email, but they didn't actually specify what that 'new' regulation was, did they? This is just a suggestion, but if it were me, I would send a friendly email in response, thanking them for their assistance but also inquiring about the actual regulation they are citing - being sure to stress that researching the regulation will assist you in finding a suitable solution to your current paperwork problem. This may not change the outcome for you, but it may confirm the existance of any new regulations!

Well, I do hope that you are able to find a solution. The discrepancies that you have seem so minor, that if the consulate was really interested in evaluating your case, they'd do so. Unfortunately, I really think that NYC wants to get rid of any application that is less than perfect. Sorry I don't have anything more useful. Good luck.

[rgaetano]

Thanks kontessa, those are good ideas, and I've got a few other ideas I'm going to try. Of course, I'll share whether or not they work.

The confusion I have at this point is what exactly qualifies as a "US court document"? Does that mean that is has to be a result of an official court proceeding/ruling, or could it just be a letter from someone who can put the court's official letterhead on the top of the letter and "speak on behalf of" the court type of thing? Likewise, does a letter from a Judge literally mean just a letter from a Judge, or must it be a "ruling" from a Judge?

Finally, the consulate didn't specify what kind of court, nor what kind of Judge. Does this mean it could be from a court/Judge at any level?

[kontessa]

I'm just offering ideas or suggestions, both of which may be crazy or useless. With that said, I would NOT ask for clarification from the consulate about what type of court can issue a statement, if it must be issued by a judge, or anything else to do with where the statement must come from. If you keep the requirement broad, you may have an easier time hitting the target. IMHO, to begin, I would pursue ANY type of official statement - not a ruling from a judge, but something official on court letterhead. This is why I like the verification letter recommended by a poster on the other forum. At least it appears to be easier to accomplish than obtaining an official ruling by a judge. I wish you the best with all of this, and hope to read of your success very soon.

[rgaetano]

yes, I definitely agree with not asking for further specification from the consulate. If I can get a letter though, I was planning on emailing it to them and asking to schedule a follow up in the same email. This way it prevents me from making a whole appointment and going just to have them say that the letter is not sufficient.

[rjnigro]

Hi ... From when we last communicated, a friend is reaching out to a friend who "allegedly" knows a judge ... my feeling is to try to get a letter from a judge on official stationary and "sealed" saying "We reviewed all the documents and have concluded "X" is"X"." If it were me, I would go with that letter and not e-mail it in ... although it doesn't seem to matter to the NYC consulate ... but it's usually easier to say no via e-mail than in person. I am also seeking the advice of an attorney I know ... he's reviewing it but hasn't gotten back yet

[johnnyonthespot]

Hi ... From when we last communicated, a friend is reaching out to a friend who "allegedly" knows a judge ... my feeling is to try to get a letter from a judge on official stationary and "sealed" saying "We reviewed all the documents and have concluded "X" is"X"." If it were me, I would go with that letter and not e-mail it in ... although it doesn't seem to matter to the NYC consulate ... but it's usually easier to say no via e-mail than in person. I am also seeking the advice of an attorney I know ... he's reviewing it but hasn't gotten back yet

I am trying to imagine a judge doing this and, honestly, I don't see it happening. A court order of finding, yes, but a letter, no.

Of course, the effect is the same, just the stationery is different.

I look forward to hearing how these cases turn out.

[rjnigro]

Johnny on the spot nailed it >>> friend of a friend didn't work out. As I have come to learn today, the person is actual a law clerk for a NYS judge who is clueless in matters such as this. He's referring me to ICE Department of Homeland Security, the State Department and Charles Schumer's office ... as well as going to the US Southern District of New York court ... Scratching the head again