Need Mother's B.C.?

[KarenChristino]

I am tracing through my GGF-GF-F in NYC. Do I need my mother's (non-direct line) NYS birth certificate? Every name except my GM's first name has an error! The Church where she got her baptismal record for her marriage now says they have no record of her birth, and NYS says they require documents before birth to support changes. I mailed away to NYS for my grandparents' marriage record, but I am not sure it exists as they were married in a Catholic Church and the NYS website says this could take 5 months! (Church marriage record also has errors.) Does anyone have any thoughts? Will NYS accept any later documentation for corrections? Thank you!

[johnnyonthespot]

There are many here who will report that the NYC consulate did not require birth or death certificates for persons not in the direct line. That was true for me in mid-2008 when I applied GF -> F -> myself and I did not need my mother's or grandmother's birth/death certificates.

[JavaisLife]

I just applied in Sept. I did not need my father's birth certificate, nor was I asked.

I was asked for my GGM birth certificate - which was not in the direct line. I didn't have it - it ended up being okay.

Can you bring in a "no record" letter - I did bring that w/ me.

You should be fine.

Marie

[KarenChristino]

Thank you both! I am sooo relieved. I understood this to be the case -- but it IS my mother after all. It suddenly occurred to me that they should of course want my mother! She somehow did not seem like just another non-direct line person.

I think I'm going to continue to move with her corrections if I can, just to be on the safest side and b/c my mom has gotten cranky about the whole process lately since she is not directly involved. (I can't get a "no record" letter since there IS a record - just a terribly messed-up one.)

Karen

[johnnyonthespot]

My mother's New York birth certificate also had many serious errors not the least of which was that it did not have her given name as at the time of issue she was still an "unnamed female child". Thankfully the NYC consulate never asked to see it.

Some time after my jure sanguinis application was approved, I set about to correct my mother's birth certificate just for the sake of posterity. Took several months and required lots of documentation. Even then, I am not certain the changes would have been approved if my mother weren't still living and able to sign the request in her own name.

[sceaminmonkey]

I went through ggf>gf>m>me . I was 100% required to have my fathers bc even thugh he was not in the direct line. Not only that, he used his middle name on his bc and I was required to change my parents marriage record and my bc to show his middle name. HOWEVER . When they asked for my gm bc I used a baptismal record which they did not seem to give a shit about but would not take church records for marriage. So I dunno how importNt it is but I wouldn't show up without it. I applied in December 2010 abt 5 months ago.

Good luck!

[kontessa]

NYS says they require documents before birth to support changes.

I was given the same information when attempting to amend records with NYS. For starters, if your mother is living, that's a good thing. In dealing with corrections and NYS, I would interact ONLY with Linda Ortiz in the corrections unit - you and/or your mother can deal with her directly via email. She is very responsive and professional. I would speak with her first in order to know exactly what evidence is required to make the necessary amendments. (Keep copies of all email traffic as people sometimes get busy and forget what they've already agreed to do. )

BTW, does your mother have an old copy of her baptismal certificate somewhere? In an old file maybe? Odd that the church no longer has a record - what about contacting the local diocese that oversees that particular church? Was she married in a different church than the one she was baptised in? If so, maybe they have an old copy of her baptismal record?

Not sure that this will help, but you can always gather every other form of evidence to support your changes (again, best to get your instructions from Ms. Ortiz first). Other ideas, even though they may not be listed as acceptable:

1) a copy of your mother's SS # application and the Numident (The Numident was required for me to create a delayed birth record for my GF, so maybe it would be acceptable to make amendments to one that already exists?)

2) early school records

3) old NYS census records

4) hospital records

5) insurance records

4) GP's birth, marriage, death records

As others have already mentioned, maybe your mom's record won't even be necessary! Good luck though!

[KarenChristino]

Kontessa, thank you for this rigorous run-down! I already have some letters out for a few of these items. I felt such a block in even contemplating sending to France and Germany for the GP's birth records, but I had the same feeling about the Italian ones and they ended up being surprisingly easy to get. And these relatives are more recent. Maybe I can also get their Alien Registration Forms, since I don't believe that either one of them naturalized.

ScreaminM, Your situation sounds very similar to mine. I know there are many details we're not privy to, but the contradictory reports about Consulate interviews are disturbing because we don't know exactly what to plan for. I have to go to court regularly for my job. Sometimes one Clerk will tell me one thing and another something completely different. At times they've also been very insistent that my boss is doing something completely wrong but grudgingly accept the papers anyway. Then it turns out that my boss was right all along. Wish there was an attorney out there with that much experience with this! I think the reality could very well be that we are not dealing with the actual "decider" in our interviews.

[sceaminmonkey]

well the weirdest part for me is what he picked out to correct. I mean honestly he could have Fuc*ed me over. on ages and the naturalization docs etc but he chose something recent to correct. it is just weird that he could give less of a crap about a non direct certificate for one person then a non direct for another. he def did me a favor on choosing what I needed corrected. I feel like there is an unofficial or official rule that they need to pick out atleast one thing to have us correct. In the end he was not wrong though. I didnt even attempt to argue it

[Drew927]

I applied March 2011, GF-F-Me in NYC. He did ask for my grandmothers birth certificate which I had from Italy and he took it. I was also asked for an uncertified photocopy of my non-direct relatives birth certificates(my mother and my wife).
Hope this helps,
Drew

[KarenChristino]

That is helpful, Drew. Am I correct in assuming that even if there were errors in the non-direct photocopies, they didn't really care or make you do anything further? (I have my GM birth, GGM death, etc. all non-direct line but with errors so I wasn't sure I should even let them know they're available.) Thanks!
Karen

[Drew927]

Karen,
I had my GM death Cert w/errors but he did not ask for it so I did not offer it. I was prepared to give him all non direct documents with apostille and translations. Although I did not need to, I was glad I spent the extra money and went prepared just in case.
Go prepared and give only what they ask for. If you hand over something with errors, let them bring it to your attention. They may look at it as not a problem.
Good luck,
Drew

[johnnyonthespot]

There are a couple of questions which come to mind for those who had to provide birth and death certificates of non direct-line persons:

1) was the consular person who requested the documents an assistant/clerk, or the actual citizenship officer?

2) what would have happened if you said, "Sorry, I don't have that"?

A while back, someone here (may have been liviomoreno?) posted a list of documents required as specified in the Italian legislation concerning jure sanguinis citizenship. As I recall, the list is very simple, including only birth certificates for each direct-line person plus proof of citizenship for the original Italian ancestor.

The consulates, especially in the US, seem to be all over the place in their document requirements - often with no reasonable explanation. For example, why death certificates? They have nothing to do with proving lineage and are often rife with errors anyway. The only explanation I have come up with is that proving someone is deceased alleviates the necessity to have that person sign a "Declaration of Living Italian Ascendant" form.

Why marriage certificates? If a child born out of wedlock can claim jure sanguinis citizenship (he can; the law is clear on this point), then why are marriage certifcates demanded?

In truth, all that should be necessary is the following:

a) applicant's birth certificate which lists names and birthdate/place of parents

b) the birth certificate of either of the parents named in "a"

c) the birth certificate of either of the parents named in "b"

d) etc, until an Italian-born ancestor is reached

e) proof that the person in "d" was still an Italian citizen when the person in "c" was born.

Everything else is fluff. Marriage certificates, death certificates, certificates for non direct-line persons - all are meaningless fluff. And, in that fluff, the citizenship official (or worse, the clerk/assistant) may find one of more discrepancies to make a fuss about.

If I had non direct-line documents which contained discrepancies, I would not offer them when (if) asked; instead I would say, "I haven't found that yet; do I really need it?" and see what happens.

[KarenChristino]

I think you are right Carmine, that's how I've been planning for my appointment. But the frustration is that people report that they needed other documents. And then there is the bizarre contradiction between the law and what the Consulate website says it requires. My appointment has been postponed and is currently scheduled 14 months after originally placed. So it feels like everything is counting on that moment! And what if I get a clerk whose pants are too tight or who had an argument with their spouse that morning?

I'd take a chance but I have a big fat hole in my application right now because my GF's B.C. does not seem to exist after searching for a year and a half. So I want to do whatever I can to address the potential side issues. And even then, who knows?

I just read a New Yorker article by an English guy who's lived in Italy for 30 years. He said he stood in line for hours to register before he found he needed documents he was never asked to bring! If they would give us initial appointments, review our docs and tell us what we need, we'd all be OK. Instead we have a year to sit and fret about it.

[kontessa]

urp.po-net.prato.it/quaderni/numero10/pdf/num10_en.pdf

Here's a handy little guide (English translations provided) that lists the requirements for citizenship - jure sanguinis - around page 118 or 119. (Off topic, but this thing is filled with great info for people living in Italy!)

I agree with Carmine, that the consulates sometimes ask for more than is necessary, and NYC's demands are just plain ridiculous. They are allowed to ask for additional documentation, though. This may be one reason why the requirements vary from one consulate to the next, and why NYC demands 'everything but the kitchen sink'.