No, unfortunately Italy's law is the problem, regardless of the husband's country's laws. Pre-1948 marriages in Brazil, Argentina etc also did not automatically naturalize the wife, yet the only way descendants were granted citizenship in these cases was a lengthy series of court cases and appeals. The court's justification in these cases was the Italian law being discriminatory, not that the wife was never naturalized abroad.It seems to me that the Italian law cited means that the woman loses her Italian citizenship only if the laws of the other country cause her to gain the citizenship of her new husband.
Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
Who recommended him?DeFilippis78 wrote:Here is a lawyer recommended on this board.
www.italianlaw.net
His name is Anthony Alioto. Hes a lawyer for real estate in Italy but also dual citizenship. Hes in California
Alioto's not a lawyer- he's a paralegal.
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
American citizenship through marriage is not automatic. A foreign spouse can gain an immigration benefit through marriage after three years if the US spouse agrees to act as her sponsor. I don't know how far it goes back but do know that my uncle who brought back an Italian war bride in 1944 had to sponsor her for a petition. She would not have lost her Italian citizenship until she naturalized.
Prior to 1922 (year of immigration law change????) if an Italian woman married an American in Italy and she remained in Italy and was registered in her Comune, I do not think she lost her Italian citizenship. But her children born in Italy to a foreigner would not be Italian. If she eventually emigrated to America and it was before 1922, then she would have automatically lost her Italian citizenship.
Prior to 1922 (year of immigration law change????) if an Italian woman married an American in Italy and she remained in Italy and was registered in her Comune, I do not think she lost her Italian citizenship. But her children born in Italy to a foreigner would not be Italian. If she eventually emigrated to America and it was before 1922, then she would have automatically lost her Italian citizenship.
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johnnyonthespot
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Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
This implies that it was possible to become a "stateless" person (without any citizenship); everything I have ever read says that this is impossible.teddi wrote:No, unfortunately Italy's law is the problem, regardless of the husband's country's laws. Pre-1948 marriages in Brazil, Argentina etc also did not automatically naturalize the wife, yet the only way descendants were granted citizenship in these cases was a lengthy series of court cases and appeals. The court's justification in these cases was the Italian law being discriminatory, not that the wife was never naturalized abroad.It seems to me that the Italian law cited means that the woman loses her Italian citizenship only if the laws of the other country cause her to gain the citizenship of her new husband.
Unless a woman was actually granted US citizenship, I cannot imagine how Italy could take away her Italian citizenship.
Please note, by the way, I am not discussing the citizenship of further descendants - which may be subject to other strange quirks in law.
Carmine
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
.......Carmine said: This implies that it was possible to become a "stateless" person (without any citizenship); everything I have ever read says that this is impossible.
Unless a woman was actually granted US citizenship, I cannot imagine how Italy could take away her Italian citizenship........
Yes, absolutely, Carmine. You are correct. And this is why she is still Italian if she remains in Italy despite being married to a foreigner.
In fact, I question the entire concept of an Italian woman losing her citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner. Granted, she can't pass it on to her descendents prior to 1948 but losing her own citizenship without becoming naturalized? I don't think so.
Somewhere in this forum the US Cable Act has been mentioned (American women losing citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner). But this does not apply to Italy or to Italian women. Let's not confuse things here.
Unless a woman was actually granted US citizenship, I cannot imagine how Italy could take away her Italian citizenship........
Yes, absolutely, Carmine. You are correct. And this is why she is still Italian if she remains in Italy despite being married to a foreigner.
In fact, I question the entire concept of an Italian woman losing her citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner. Granted, she can't pass it on to her descendents prior to 1948 but losing her own citizenship without becoming naturalized? I don't think so.
Somewhere in this forum the US Cable Act has been mentioned (American women losing citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner). But this does not apply to Italy or to Italian women. Let's not confuse things here.
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
..........No, unfortunately Italy's law is the problem, regardless of the husband's country's laws. Pre-1948 marriages in Brazil, Argentina etc also did not automatically naturalize the wife, yet the only way descendants were granted citizenship in these cases was a lengthy series of court cases and appeals. The court's justification in these cases was the Italian law being discriminatory, not that the wife was never naturalized abroad.........
The 1948 law does not pertain to the Italian woman losing her citizenship. It pertains to her not being able to pass it on to her descendants.
My Italian-Argentinian neighbors in Italy got the Italian passport the same way I did and were lined up around the Consulate in Buenos Aires in 1999-2000 during the currency collapse. They were in living in Italy because they qualified through their father's line or through their mother's line (if they were born after 1948). It's very cut and dried. Italian women did not have the right to pass on their citizenship prior to 1948. Let's not try to cloak this with the US Cable Act. Grazie.
The 1948 law does not pertain to the Italian woman losing her citizenship. It pertains to her not being able to pass it on to her descendants.
My Italian-Argentinian neighbors in Italy got the Italian passport the same way I did and were lined up around the Consulate in Buenos Aires in 1999-2000 during the currency collapse. They were in living in Italy because they qualified through their father's line or through their mother's line (if they were born after 1948). It's very cut and dried. Italian women did not have the right to pass on their citizenship prior to 1948. Let's not try to cloak this with the US Cable Act. Grazie.
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
.......The court's justification in these cases was the Italian law being discriminatory, not that the wife was never naturalized abroad........
What court's justification? The Italian court has already remedied any discrimination by making the cut-off date 1948. If you claim applicants in Brazil and Argentina got relief through court cases and appeals, they are likely to get much less relief in the near future. Reason being the Italian Vice-Consul in my region told me Italy now realizes it opened up a big can of worms with these laws as too many people with only a tenuous connection to Italy are looking for loopholes and clogging up the system. The job of the Consulates is to provide a service to Italian citizens living abroad.
What court's justification? The Italian court has already remedied any discrimination by making the cut-off date 1948. If you claim applicants in Brazil and Argentina got relief through court cases and appeals, they are likely to get much less relief in the near future. Reason being the Italian Vice-Consul in my region told me Italy now realizes it opened up a big can of worms with these laws as too many people with only a tenuous connection to Italy are looking for loopholes and clogging up the system. The job of the Consulates is to provide a service to Italian citizens living abroad.
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
I agree jennabet. I do think Italians are beginning to rethink this process. Rather than being discriminatory, Italy's citizenship law is probably one of the most liberal; and, unfortunately, because of the way it is set up, it is not uncommon for people with strong Italian ties (both set of parents born in Italy) to be rejected in favor of those with very tenuous connections (ggggf on only one side of the family).
Regarding the Cable Act--it was very limited--in that in the US before 1922 a woman's citizenship was based on that of her husband. My gm was stripped of her US citizenship (she was born in the US) when she married my gf. But how did Italy view this? I really wonder if my gm could have gone to Italy during that period and claim to be Italian based on US law. If Italy viewed things the same way, that would be another matter, but I think that it's really important to be sure we're focusing on the right set of laws.
Regarding the Cable Act--it was very limited--in that in the US before 1922 a woman's citizenship was based on that of her husband. My gm was stripped of her US citizenship (she was born in the US) when she married my gf. But how did Italy view this? I really wonder if my gm could have gone to Italy during that period and claim to be Italian based on US law. If Italy viewed things the same way, that would be another matter, but I think that it's really important to be sure we're focusing on the right set of laws.
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
The 1948 constitution declared women equal under Italian law. Subsequent court decisions and legislation based on that that principle have overturned both the pre-1948 inability of women to pass citizenship to children, as well as the pre-1948 requirement that women marrying foreigners lost Italian citizenship.
Before 1948, Italy did indeed strip Italian women of citizenship, regardless of whether they were formally recognized as citizens by their husband's country. In fact, Italy subsequently continued to do so until court decisions and new laws were passed in the 70s and 80s.
As for some court decisions which have rectified the loss of Italian women's citizenship by marriage to foreigners, as well as citizenship through mother for pre-1948 births, see the websites of Italian avvocati Luigi Paiano and Marco Pepe. There are quite a few cases.
Before 1948, Italy did indeed strip Italian women of citizenship, regardless of whether they were formally recognized as citizens by their husband's country. In fact, Italy subsequently continued to do so until court decisions and new laws were passed in the 70s and 80s.
As for some court decisions which have rectified the loss of Italian women's citizenship by marriage to foreigners, as well as citizenship through mother for pre-1948 births, see the websites of Italian avvocati Luigi Paiano and Marco Pepe. There are quite a few cases.
Re: Citizenship through GF born from GGM before 1948
It is true that 1948 is an important year with respect to both issues. Obviously, it was important with regard to a woman's ability to pass on citizenship to her children. Additionally, it was also important with regard to whether a woman lost her citizenship upon marrying a foreigner. This is because the Italian constitution first took effect on January 1st of that year.
It's also true that while 1948 was an important date in this regard, it was not recognized as such until years later. It was not until April 1975 that the Constitutional Court ruled that it was unconstitutional for a woman to lose citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner. This was followed the following month by the implementation of the Family Law Reform laws, which enshrined this into law. This meant that women who married a foreigner after 1975 no longer lost their citizenship. But, even then, it wasn't until 2001 that the government finally determined that it would apply this rule retroactively to 1948. Thus, it was only in 2001 that women who had lost their citizenship by virtue of marrying a foreigner between 1948 and 1975 had their citizenship restored retroactively to the date of the loss (such that any children born to them in the interim were also citizens).
Note that even women who lost their citizenship by virtue of marriage to a foreigner prior to 1948 can still regain it by simply competing a form under Article 219 of Law 151/1975. However, this is not made retroactive, which can be a problem for their decendents.
It's also true that while 1948 was an important date in this regard, it was not recognized as such until years later. It was not until April 1975 that the Constitutional Court ruled that it was unconstitutional for a woman to lose citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner. This was followed the following month by the implementation of the Family Law Reform laws, which enshrined this into law. This meant that women who married a foreigner after 1975 no longer lost their citizenship. But, even then, it wasn't until 2001 that the government finally determined that it would apply this rule retroactively to 1948. Thus, it was only in 2001 that women who had lost their citizenship by virtue of marrying a foreigner between 1948 and 1975 had their citizenship restored retroactively to the date of the loss (such that any children born to them in the interim were also citizens).
Note that even women who lost their citizenship by virtue of marriage to a foreigner prior to 1948 can still regain it by simply competing a form under Article 219 of Law 151/1975. However, this is not made retroactive, which can be a problem for their decendents.
