Hello All,

I am considering applying for dual citizenship. My grandfather (from what I can determine so far) was naturalized in Brooklyn (Eastern District NY courts) admitted 7-18-1923 according to the image from the card file from Ancestry. I also have the volume and petition number. My father was born in NY in 1916.

According to the NY consulate website I need certified copies of naturalization papers. From what it sounds like, there are multiple places where these records may be held. From their webs sites, the Kings County Clerks office in Brooklyn maintains record from 1906- 1924, the National Archives and the USCIS all have naturalization records. I could not find any info on any of the sites about getting records certified.

There is an downloadable request form on the Italian Geneological Group website that mentions certification but I am not sure if that is outdated.

Does anyone know which place I might have the best chance of getting a certified copy??? Any experience/input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Gina

Researching Corriero, Bumbalo,Catalano and Sinatra in Roccapalumba and Lercara Sicily

The best copies (that is, the most legible) will probably be the ones you obtain from the King's County Clerks office; the worst would be from USCIS.

When I got copies from the Westchester County Archives, they forwarded them directly to the Westchester County Clerk's office where each page was stamped and certified by the clerk to be "true copies of official records."

I suggest you telephone the King's County clerk's office and ask if they have a similar procedure.

My gf was naturalized in USDC Eastern District. I received a copy of his papers from NARA that was certified by them and bound with a red ribbon. I then sent those documents to the US District Court in Manhattan and they created a letter with the Court Clerk's seal stating that my gf was naturalized in that court. The court then sent everything back to me. I also received those documents from USCIS but did not have those documents certified and didn't have to.

Thanks Johnny and Mazzini,

It is interesting that Manhattan courts wrote the letter for the Brooklyn court? I have no idea how these things work...

Mazzini, did you go through the NY consulate? Were the USCIS documents basically duplicates of the ones that you received from NARA?

I was also just noticing that the Kings county clerks office does not list the "Certificate of Naturalization" as part of their records... I don't know why they would have the rest and not that. Maybe the "certificate" is something only USCIS or NARA can supply?

The NY consulate also say that you "may also also be required to present a certified copy of the petition for naturalization and oath of allegiance". So I guess the more documentation I can get, the better. Naturalization seems like the thing that gives people the most problems.

This is an interesting process..It sounds like getting birth certificates from NYC is LOTS of fun! And I'm guessing I'm going to have to change my grandmothers first name on her death certificate in my future, also in NYC...

acupxpa,

my mistake, mine was in the southern district. no matter. the federal court certifies the NARA docs. NARA didn't supply my certificate. USCIS did along with the same documents as NARA. the certified copy of the petition and oath of allegiance are from NARA and the USDC certifies them. there is no certiified copy from USCIS.

NYC birth certificates were not fun.

I went through the LA Consulate. see the thread "Sucess in LA."

Congratulations Mazzini! It sounds like you had a fairly smooth process in LA, and so fast! I know NY is going to take me a while....

Thanks for clarifying, I think I have a plan now.

I need to get the certificate from USCIS BEFORE I go to the courts, who I believe can supply me with the other certified documents as well but I will call to make sure. If not I will get them from NARA and bring them.

Thanks again,
Gina

Gina,

I'd go through NARA first. They were amazingly quick. If NARA has the docs, you don't need USCIS. USCIS takes at least 3 months. I didn't need USCIS, I did it anyway.

Make it easy on yourself. Get NARA docs, certify US DC. End o' story.

acupxpa wrote:

I was also just noticing that the Kings county clerks office does not list the "Certificate of Naturalization" as part of their records... I don't know why they would have the rest and not that. Maybe the "certificate" is something only USCIS or NARA can supply?

The Certificate of Naturalization can be obtained only from USCIS.

In the fairly recent past, most consulates did not require the certificate. It seems that some which did not before do so now; I believe New York is one of these.

If you do order from USCIS, be sure to check the box requesting an "Electronic Copy" or something like that. They will send you a CD with an image file of the certificate on it. You will find that the paper copy of the certificate they also send will be nearly illegible due to the crappy monochrome laser printers they use to generate it. If you open the image file and simply print it on a color printer, it will be 10 times more readable. If you tweek the brighness and contrast with an image editing application and then print on a color printer, it will be 50 times more readable.

johnnyonthespot wrote:

In the fairly recent past, most consulates did not require the certificate. It seems that some which did not before do so now; I believe New York is one of these.

Yes, the current NY consulate web site states it does require the certified certificate, so USCIS it is. If they are the only ones who supply the certificate then I wonder if they are the only ones who can certify it (seems redundant). I will have to look into that. Good to know they supply a digital copy as well.

I noticed that the LDS library also has the petition on microfilm which I can also make a digital copy from at the local FHC- if I get a lousy copy of that..

I had a strange experience with USCIS. My first request came back with a "Not Found" certified letter. I sent them a second request. The documents I received from NARA were the same as those from USCIS - neither had the certificate. I sent them a third request (just for fun) after already having my NARA docs certified by the USDC SDNY. This time my docs included the certification.

Nothing from USCIS was certified. They were only the photocopies.

The official in LA saw my NARA docs and the USDC SDNY certification of those docs.

She then saw the photocopy of the certificate - not certified in any way, shape or form. Just a bad copy.

It didn't matter.

BTW, earlier in the process I called the consulate and they said I didn't need the certificate since I had the USDC certified letter.

I guess you should get what you can from USCIS.

Don't want to disagree with Johnny.

I'm trained as a lawyer, I don't practice, but it seems this process is not as daunting as may be perceived.

If your documents are lacking - and you really qualify - you will just be delayed. It's like having to amend an original petition in a lawsuit. You have a cause of action but it'll take longer.

I also had different first names of my grandfather (Vincent and James) and she just shrugged them off.

It didn't matter because my mother was the true citizen. Whatever the deal was with my grandfather was moot after the USDC said he had become a citizen after my mother was born.

NY is just making you go through the hoops. More Italians in NY than in LA. I know. I grew up in NY and I used to run a prominent Italian-American org. in LA (you certainly heard of them - OSIA) and know the Italian Consulate officials (but noone knew I was going through this process).

mazzini wrote:

... Don't want to disagree with Johnny. ...

Actually, I agree with you.

When I had my first of three appointments with the New York consulate citizenship officer in January, 2008, both the web site and the official insisted I needed documents from both sides of my lineage. However when we met again a few months later, she showed no interest whatsoever in my mother's and grandmother's certificates and simply did not want them with my formal application submittal in June.

I believe the "system" was designed to enable the consulates to help applicants find a route to Italian citizenship. They would tell you to come in with every conceivable document and then the citizenship official would weed through trying to find an unbroken path back to an Italian ancestor.

While there may still be applicants who require this sort of hand-holding, I think it fair to say that thanks to sites like this one and others, most of today's applicants walk into the consulate with a well-documented lineage which does not require wasted time, effort, and expense on extraneous certificates.

The issue with regards to naturalization documents, however, seems to stem from an Italian government directive concerning "issues relating to
frequent cases of recognition of Italian citizenship obtained by submitting
false or counterfeit certificates." Many have noted an uptick in demands related to naturalization documents and, more importantly, proof of non-naturalization, coincident with the release of the above circolare.

Three times at USCIS for the certificate! Mazzzini did you happen to ask at USDC in Manhattan when you were certifying documents if they had copies there as well?

Considering that the USCIS is making copies from 50+ yr old microfilm of COPIES according to their website (no doubt they are terrible) the original documents- or microfilm of, are in Kings County, right?. Even though their web site does not include the certificate in their list of available records I will call on Monday and ask if any of their records include it anyway. (Wishful thinking for one stop shopping....) Maybe I'll get lucky..

Anyone ever get an original certificate copy off of LDS microfilm??? I noticed there are multiple rolls with records, not just petitions. One says "Final petition and citizenship papers, hmmmm. (If all I need is a copy to present to the USDC to certify...)

Point taken about the non-essential lineage documentation. I won't let it hang me up.. but I like to be prepared...

USDC does not have copies. They look at the NARA certified docs, check their records and issue their certification of the NARA certification. They did not have any certificates of naturalization as I asked the clerk all this.

For future reference:

I just spoke to Mike in the records room at Kings County Clerks office. For the years 1907-1924 they do hold the actual documents, not copies or microfilm. They are mostly petitions, they do not have "certificates" as far as he knows.